Menk : Hello.

Interviewer : Hello? Is this Mufti Menk?

Menk : Speaking. Yes.

Interviewer : Yes, it’s Caroline from Denmark, the Danish radio station.

Menk : How are you, my sister?

Interviewer : I’m good, thank you. How are you?

Menk : Very well, thanks. It’s lovely weather this morning here in Zimbabwe. You have to join us in Africa. I wish I could speak a bit of Danish. So if you can speak the language, you can reach the heart. But if you speak another language, sometimes you don’t reach the heart.

Interviewer : Alright. The Danish Ministry of Integration and Foreigners has a list of hate preachers on the website and you have been on the list since the 28th of November 2018. How were you told about you being on the list?

Menk : Actually, I never ever knew of the list. I didn’t ever know that I was on the list. I would have been very surprised if someone told me because I didn’t apply to come to Denmark. I didn’t dream of coming to Denmark. I didn’t even think of it. So you are the person who actually sent me an email to tell me you are on this list. I thought it was a prank because my work is all about love and integration and peace. And I know over the years we all have developed and we have all become more conscious of coming together and respecting each other. I was very shocked. I was sad. But after you told me and after the email between you and I happened, I went onto the list of the link that you showed me and I was just sad. I started praying for the lady who put me on there and I actually learned how to say her name properly. Her name is Inger Støjberg.

Interviewer : Exactly.

Menk : So I was praying for her because I think she is a good woman, but maybe she doesn’t understand what she is doing sometimes. Because to put someone like me there, I was just very surprised. I am full of love, full of kindness, full of reaching out to people who differ from me. I can send you more than 1000 sentences of mine that I have said in the public domain that proves that I actually promote people to respect someone whom you are different from. Maybe your culture is different. And every country you go, there is a different culture, there is different norms. We respect all the people and all their cultures, and we don’t try to impose what we have on someone else. And I have said this millions of times.

Interviewer : But actually you are not only banned from entering Denmark when you are on the list, you are banned from entering any of the Schengen countries. It’s 26 countries. How do you feel about that?

Menk : Actually, I didn’t really plan to go to any of those countries as yet. So it’s very sad because obviously, if you were to ask my followers, and even if sister Inger Støjberg was to follow me on Twitter for five days or ten days, she will change her mind. I am 100% certain that she will see that I made a mistake. But unfortunately, it looks like maybe someone must be on a witch hunt to try to just find people with a beard who might be very popular, very famous. Maybe they will look at one, two things that might have been said in the past. And we develop over time. We say things differently over time, we change our minds over time. So to say you are banned from 20, 30 countries without giving me a chance to a court case, a hearing, I don’t mind. You can ask me, talk to me, communicate with me. I believe if someone does bad to you, you don’t need to do bad back to them. You just need to continue to be good. Because someone’s bad behavior must not change your good behavior.

Interviewer : [Some Danish speech] I would like to talk to you about some of the documentation the ministry sent me. The documentation which justifies putting you on the list.

Menk : Excellent. I don’t mind talking about it, but they did not send me anything. And I hear from you about what the justification may be.

Interviewer : Yeah, the first one is a tweet from you. It’s a tweet from January 2012. And it says that pornography is the reason why we have homosexuals.

Menk : Okay, if you can just hold on. Yes, it was tweeted in 2012. Now, I started using Twitter in 2011. In 2012, maybe I had 100, 200 followers. The tweet you were talking about, it says pornography leads to, leads to, can lead to, right? So I think it has seven likes and one retweet. That tweet. And it was posted in 2012. You must remember something. I come from Zimbabwe. I come from a third world country. I was brought up in a country where if you talk about homosexuality, if you promote it, up to today, it is banned. It is illegal in this country. Not only in this country, but many, many countries. And we are taught from when we were young, from the school, that, you know what? It’s not allowed, and so on. So as you grow and you travel, you begin to learn, you begin to see. There was a time when I spoke about homosexuals, and I said that in my lecture in 2009, which is many, many years ago, I said that homosexuals are worse than animals. And after I was corrected by someone, I actually have a retraction on my website and on my Facebook and on a lot of my pages where I said what I said was actually wrong and it was based on a misnotion. We cannot say that someone is worse than an animal. And you need to understand human beings and understand that they’re honorable. So if they ban me for two years and they’re using a tweet that was tweeted seven years ago, where is the logic? Go back to two years. Go back to four years. Look at what I have said in those last few years. But if you are using a tweet that was retweeted once, today nearly all my tweets are retweeted 10,000 times or more. And when you look at pornography, if your country allows the pornography, then I don’t know that, and I didn’t say that you must break the law of the country. Why can someone hold that against me? If someone else wants to do anything, they can drink alcohol, for example. Some people don’t drink alcohol. They can eat meat. Some people don’t eat meat. Some people only eat organic food. Some people say that organic food is bad. All of this does not make a person a criminal, but it’s their little freedom for as long as they respect the other opinions, and they are promoting respecting the difference. If you Google my name, “Mufti Menk, respecting the difference”, you will find so many lectures I have given to hundreds of thousands of people in stadiums across the globe telling them to respect the differences that you have with other people.

Interviewer : Alright, so you don’t believe that pornography can lead to homosexuality anymore?

Menk : To be honest with you, pornography can lead to so many things. It can lead to lack of sleep. Number one. It will waste your Internet, sometimes, it depends how much you are watching it. And if I believe that I shouldn’t be watching it, my children should not be watching it. And if you believe you want to watch it, there are professional studies on the Internet that show you that pornography can lead to this. There is another professional study that says it cannot lead to this. So if there are two or three professional studies, surely the freedom of the human beings, they can believe that it can lead. What I’m saying is very peaceful. I’m not promoting hatred or anything and to put me on a hate preacher’s list, because I might believe that pornography is something I shouldn’t be doing. And I am living far away. I’m living in a small country, one of the poorest countries in the whole world. I am so famous now because if Inger Støjberg knows me, wow. Wow. I’m so happy. It’s amazing for me because she’s going to make me very very famous.

Interviewer : What are your beliefs today about pornography?

Menk : I will not watch it. I will not promote it. I still believe that you cannot just sit and watch people having sex. I think that perhaps it may or may not lead to so many other things, because a lot of people start with masturbation. There is a whole discussion about whether masturbation is a good thing or a bad thing.

Interviewer : Okay, but let’s talk about some of your other preaches now. It’s a preach where you are talking about having more than one wife, which is illegal in Denmark.

Menk : Okay.

Interviewer : But you deleted this part from Facebook. Actually, you deleted the tweet we talked about before as well. How come you deleted it?

Menk : When you sent me this tweet of 2012. I have a screenshot of it. It has seven likes and one retweet, which is absolutely negligible, which means it is very small. And I thought to myself, if this tweet is going to cause a problem in a country with its people, then I am bigger than a problem. I need to delete it so that the people of Denmark live in peace. So I deleted it to do a favor to Inger Støjberg. So that’s the reason why I took that out. You’re talking about having more than one wife, for example. So there are 60 countries in the world that actually have enshrined polygamy in a way that it happens openly. Maybe in your country it doesn’t. I don’t know. But whenever I have spoken about polygamy, I have said something very clearly. That lecture is not deleted completely. I just privatized it. Because, you see, I said in the lecture that I am not here to promote it, nor am I here to demote it. But I am letting you know that in Islamic values, it is permissible. So I am talking to you about Islamic values, it is allowed.

Interviewer : But what about yourself? Do you have more than one wife?

Menk : I have more than one wife, and I will respect them. And I don’t promote it. I don’t demote it. It’s very legal. I have not done anything illegal in the country where I live. I have proper documentation. If I was living in another country, I would not break the law of that country. So the thing is, it’s not just me, but with me there are almost 1 billion people, 1 billion male and female, who believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong if you do it respectfully. If you know, the Mormon community in America, for example, they have many, many wives. I only have two wives, for example. They are very good people. I respect them. We love each other so much, all of us. A big team, so nice. And now to tell me I’m a hate preacher just because of my own condition and you are asking me I don’t even need to tell you. I could have said, look, that is my own business, but I don’t want, I’m transparent. I will tell you, yes, this is the scene. And you know what? If you meet them, you will be very surprised, I’m sure. There are so many men in Denmark, they have more than one girlfriend. I mean, does it mean you must take away their citizenship and you must kick them out and so on? They’re not even Muslims, for example. They might be someone else. But so many people are doing this secretly. It’s just that I have it openly. So if the problem is with me in person, then I don’t know. But if it is what I preach she said I’m a hate preacher. I want to know how me having more than one wife myself is hate preaching. How is that hate preaching?

Interviewer : The reason why they see you as a hate preacher is because they see you as a threat to the public order. Meaning that your preachers undermines the Danish law and values.

Menk : Like I said, I invite my sister and she is a respected sister, sister Inger Støjberg. She can follow me on Twitter or on Facebook or somewhere, just for five days, even for one day, even she can browse through. Go see what I’ve said in the last two years. Because like you said, the ban is two years. So let’s go back two years, because you will see, she will admit, she will smile, she will say this is a good man and he’s actually, I made a mistake. Let me remove this name from here.

Interviewer : [Some more Danish speech] I would like to go through a checklist with you.

Menk : Okay.

Interviewer : And if it’s possible, I would just like you to answer yes or no.

Menk : Okay.

Interviewer : The first question do you believe in equal rights between women and men?

Menk : Yes, absolutely. Equal rights between women and men. I stand for it, I advocate it, and I agree with it.

Interviewer : Alright. Is it okay to be a homosexual?

Menk : If a person wants to be, they are free to be a homosexual. If they don’t want to be, they are free not to be a homosexual. But it’s not okay to force anyone’s opinion on another person. I personally am not homosexual, but I have interacted with so many people who are homosexual. They get along with me just like people who are Jewish and Christian and those who don’t have a religion, and so many other people, Hindus and so many more. Recently, I have more people who have told me, you know what, I am actually homosexual, and so on. So it’s a secular right to be or not to be. And this is why I say I am not. And if someone else is not, then it doesn’t mean they need to promote hatred. They don’t need to promote the beating, the hitting, the killing of a person who chooses otherwise.

Interviewer : Alright, the next question. Can a woman shake hands with a man?

Menk : Under certain circumstances, yes she can. You know, in Islam, there is a teaching, and in other religions, there are teachings, and maybe in Denmark, there is a teaching. In Zimbabwe, there is a teaching. So whatever your teaching is, you follow it. That’s it. You follow it. If you believe yes, yes. If you believe no, no. I believe that you are totally free to shake the hand if you want to shake the hand.

Interviewer : What’s your teaching?

Menk : My personal teaching? Well, to be very honest with you, if I have to, I will. If I have to, I will.

Interviewer : Okay, when do you have to?

Menk : Whenever. It’s just the circumstance. I mean, it’s the circumstance, and everyone interprets their circumstance in a different way, so it’s fine. And I know there are times when I have, and there are times when it is avoided. Like sometimes some people don’t want to shake my hand because of my color. Sometimes some people don’t want to shake my hand because of my beard. But in my heart, I love everyone. And to be honest with you, it’s fine. Whatever teaching you have, you follow it. That’s it.

Interviewer : Okay.

Menk : I have, to be honest with you, I have, I have, in the past, I have. Where I have had to, then I have.

Interviewer : Alright, so if I visited you in Zimbabwe, you will shake my hand?

Menk : Well, if you see my big beard and you extend your hand to me, who knows, I may shake it. I don’t know at the time, because I really don’t know if you will even come to this country. But yeah, argumentatively if you were to come, it’s okay. I’m not going to make you feel awkward and upset and so on. And even to be honest with you, if you look at the Islamic teachings, there is more than one ruling about the same thing.

Interviewer : Alright. Do you believe in freedom of religion?

Menk : Absolutely, yes. Freedom of religion. Everyone is allowed to choose whatever they want to believe, even within Islam. If they don’t agree with you in the same sect, it’s okay. We don’t promote hate. They can choose to be whatever they want. People can choose even not to have a religion. A lot of people don’t believe in any religions. They are free. I believe in that freedom completely. And I do believe that a country like Denmark, from what I learned about it before this, they’re a country that promotes freedom. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of everything. So, again, I’m surprised from the freedom of speech, what I may have said, is it not freedom of speech. Come on. I mean, are we not blocking freedom of speech when a guy says, I disagree with X, Y, and Z, for example? And in my case, it’s not even a strong disagreement in certain matters. So, yes, I do believe in freedom of religion.

Interviewer : All right, the next one. Do you believe in democracy?

Menk : Democracy is okay. I want to tell you something. From the time of 18 years old, I have voted in every general election in Zimbabwe, including 30 July 2018. If you go to my Instagram, look for the post, 30 July 2018, you will see my finger, and I dipped it in the ink, and I voted, and I told the people. So if I were to show you that evidence, you can believe, yes, this man is he believes that he should vote. So there we are. There are so many different ways of… so many different blueprints of democracy in general. I have voted every single time since I was 18 years old. In fact, on Twitter, I have more than 4 million followers. But I only follow one person. Who is he? He’s the democratically elected leader of my country. That’s all.

Interviewer : Alright. I only have one question left, and it is : do you still believe that pornography can lead to homosexuality?

Menk : I think if you look at… maybe it can, maybe it cannot. If pornography is okay in Denmark and homosexuality is okay in Denmark and bestiality is okay in Denmark, then what is wrong If pornography leads to homosexuality? Why are they getting angry with it? Why are they getting angry with that statement? It’s freedom of speech to believe that, yes, it does or no, it doesn’t. But the question I have is, how does that make me a hate preacher? If I say pornography is good or it’s not good, I will not watch it for example, does it make me a bad person? I mean, I cannot force the whole of Denmark to watch pornography. “Say, guys, if you don’t watch it, you’re not Danish, or every one of you, please do homosexual sex. If you didn’t do homosexual sex, you cannot be Danish.” I mean, it’s not fair to say that. And really, I’m asking because Inger Støjberg did not message me. She did not ask me. She did not convey the message to me. Like I said, I didn’t try. So I’m inviting her through the platform of yourself because you are the one who highlighted this to me, and I was surprised. I’m inviting her to actually go and follow and to go and see and to actually just study a little bit for herself. But if she hates someone as a human being, then I think maybe she needs a small help. And perhaps that help might come by her opening her heart a little bit to the rest of the people. Not everyone hates you.

Interviewer : [Some final Danish speech]